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Center for Reasoned Spirituality · 112 like this
June 4 at 2:32pm ·
‎"Revealed religions lack the flexibility to adapt to humanity's increasing knowledge of the universe." - Dave Gaddis
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5 people like this.




Jose Loayza: Revealed religions have two sources of doctrine: natural theology and revealed theology. Deists only natural theology? Is a theological project something deists ought to consider? Food for throught
June 4 at 2:38pm · LikeUnlike


Zeshan Shahbaz: http://optagon.page.tl/Flawless-Bridge-between-Science-and-Religion.htm

June 4 at 9:00pm · LikeUnlike ·


Center for Reasoned Spirituality: ‎@Zeshan Thanks, but Islam is still a revealed religion.
June 4 at 9:51pm · LikeUnlike · 2


Zeshan Shahbaz: Good day, //but Islam is still a revealed religion// Revealed guide, yes, but not according to this definition: "Revealed religions lack the flexibility to adapt to humanity's increasing knowledge of the universe." You may also refer to my short tract on this: http://optagon.page.tl/What-is-the-Core-Method-of-Islam-f-.htm
June 5 at 4:25pm · LikeUnlike ·


Center for Reasoned Spirituality
: But reason tells me (Chuck) that the Q'uran, like the Bible, is a human invention. We examine the same evidence, we both use reason, in our own fashion, yet we reach different conclusions. There is a gap between what we believe and what we can prove, and we bridge that gap with faith. I want that gap to be as narrow as possible. I'm for more rationality and less rationalization. (http://lesswrong.com/lw/ju/rationalization/)

June 5 at 5:45pm · LikeUnlike · 1


Zeshan Shahbaz
: ‎//But reason tells me (Chuck) that the Q'uran, like the Bible, is a human invention.//
I’m not sure if you read my short tract, regarding specifically the Quran, the text of the Quran claims to be a revelatory guide from the Prime Mover and the Quranic text itself states that if there are contradictions in the Qur’an (i.e. contradictions between the Qur'anic descriptions of the universe with the known facts of the universe) then it is not a revelation from The Creator. So even if the Quran fails the test of its claimed proof-value, the rational belief in The Creator would still remain for the ‘Muslim’ (i.e. God-Conscious). Technically speaking, there isn’t much distinction between a ‘Deist’ and a ‘Muslim’.
June 5 at 11:15pm · LikeUnlike


Zeshan Shahbaz
: ‎//We examine the same evidence, we both use reason, in our own fashion, yet we reach different conclusions. There is a gap between what we believe and what we can prove, and we bridge that gap with faith. I want that gap to be as narrow as... possible. I'm for more rationality and less rationalization.//
I’m not sure if I follow, firstly one cannot rationalize the irrational. If one attempts to do this then its logical fallacy will be pointed out. Reason might be a less formal way to be logical, but it is based on logic. What do you mean with ‘faith’. Do you mean blind belief?
June 5 at 11:16pm · LikeUnlike


Center for Reasoned Spirituality
: There is a huge difference between Muslim and Deist. Deists do not recognize any revealed religions as valid, and sacred texts are regarded as human inventions. There is no evidence whatsoever that the Q'uran is divinely revealed. You are suggesting that ithere is a clause that says that if the human authors of the Q'uran screwed up and authored contradictions, then the contradictions are invalid, but the rest of the Q'uran is the word of Allah. That is absurd, a "heads I win, tails you lose" fallacy that no reasoning person would accept.
I respect your choice to follow a path that lets you draw upon the wisdom that is found in the Q'uran. I do not follow the same path. You are not the first Muslim I have met who finds Islam compatible with Deism, but I cannot reconcile the two. Sorry.
June 5 at 11:40pm · LikeUnlike


Zeshan Shahbaz
: I think you may have misunderstood me, my intention was never to try to convince you or anyone else that the Quran is an actual divine revelation, I only wanted to point out that Gaddis’s quoted statement does not apply to the Quranic text,as, contrary to popular belief, Quran’s prime methodology is Reason (no matter one views the Quran as divine revelation or not). 
The root claim of Deism is that Reason points to the existence of Creator. The 'Muslim's' claim is the same, and it would remain even if the Quran were refuted as being a revelation from The Creator.
//There is no evidence whatsoever that the Q'uran is divinely revealed. You are suggesting that ithere is a clause that says that if the human authors of the Q'uran screwed up and authored contradictions, then the contradictions are invalid, but the rest of the Q'uran is the word of Allah. That is absurd, a "heads I win, tails you lose" fallacy that no reasoning person would accept.//
I will not use this post forum get into the Nitti gritty if the Quran is divine or not – btw this clause is not saying this, -- it’s simply saying that if you find inconsistencies/contradictions in the Quran then these words in the whole of the Quran is not from the One God. That’s all. The whole of the Quran can be discarded if proven to be contradictory but the Muslim (one who rationally acknowledges the existence of God and is conscious of God) would still remain. Islam, more than anything else, is simply a certain state of mind.
Friday at 12:31am · LikeUnlike


Center for Reasoned Spirituality
: ‎(Dave) Once I read this line, the article in your link above lost all credibility with me: "However, it is not generally known that the word Islam is absolutely non-exclusive, universal and timeless, since, unlike most religions, it is not tied to a culture, nationality, race, region, personality or somebody’s personal belief." Really?!
Friday at 5:33pm · LikeUnlike


Zeshan Shahbaz
: ‎//Really?!// Yes. People/sentient beings in rational acknowledgement and submission to the laws of the Prime Mover (Islam) currently exist and have always existed throughout the ages on Earth (and, most probably, even on other planets/worlds in this vast universe [according to the Quran there are definitely other intelligent sentient beings in the universe: http://optagon.page.tl/Extraterrestrials-in-Islam.htm ])

Yesterday at 8:41pm · LikeUnlike ·


Center for Reasoned Spirituality
: ‎(Dave) Your response is supposition, not an answer to my critique. Islam is not universal or timeless, it rose about 600 years after Christianity and borrowed heavily from Judeo-Christian myth. Islam is tied, primarily, to Arab/Middle Eastern culture. The religion was revealed in the Middle East and Muhammad was an Arab. The primary growth of Islam today stems from threat of violence, evidenced through Northern Africa for example, or through procreation. Moreover, Islamic treatment of women and its barbaric punishments in Sharia Law bar it from ever becoming a universal belief system.
18 hours ago · LikeUnlike


Zeshan Shahbaz
: ‎//Your response is supposition, not an answer to my critique.// 
It is an answer.
//Islam is not universal or timeless, it rose about 600 years after Christianity and borrowed heavily from Judeo-Christian myth.//
Quran (that came on the scene around that time) is simply a, claimed, revealed guide for the person who is already conscious of God (i.e. state of Islam [Quran: “…is a guidance for all the God-Conscious.”]).
And yes the Quran is claimed to be revealed at certain point in time, in a geographic location on Earth to an ethnically Arab human being in a human language of Arabic – how does all this render the message contained in the Quran as non-universal ? Btw, according to the Quran, among all, even Deists, who are conscious of the One God, do good deeds are essentially ‘Muslims’! “Surely those who believe, those who are Jews, the Christians, and Sabians [monotheists/deists who may not belong to a particular “religion”] - whoever believes in One God and the last day and does righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Lord and Sustainer; and no fear need they have and neither shall they grieve.” (Quran 2:62). Also, Muhammad, before he received revelations, was referred to by the people from his society as a Deist (“Sabi”) because he was one of those individuals who separated himself from the prevalent polytheism at that time and rationally believed in One God.
Regarding Shariah – the word literally means “a waterway that leads to a main stream, a drinking place, and a road or the right path.” In the context of the Quranic methodology, it simply means laws based on reason and compassion to bring about the greatest good of any sentient society. Sure, there are people in the world who unjustly treat but they’re operating irrationally to begin with – actually these so-called proponents of the Quran are not even following Quran’s outlined methodology – Reason. Look, one who operates irrationally, no matter whatever revealed scripture they purport to subscribe to or not, there is no changing them. If you are interested, you may refer to the article “What is a Muslim?” (http://optagon.page.tl/What-Is-A-Muslim-f-.htm ) and my short published tract http://optagon.page.tl/What-is-the-Core-Method-of-Islam-f-.htm should clarify this subject.

about an hour ago · LikeUnlike ·


Center for Reasoned Spirituality
: If you wish to proselytize, please choose another forum. Thank you.
about an hour ago · LikeUnlike


Zeshan Shahbaz
: Good day, I have no desire to proselytize (it's not in my vocabulary). I was simply responding to Dave's last comment. Thanks.
about an hour ago ·
 
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